Talk:Annecy shootings

Notability

Just to say that whilst this is a current event, it is certainly going to be a long running subject of discussion. In terms of media focus it is comparable to the Murder of Anni Dewani, and may become even higher profile and more "permanent" given its suspected political / military involvement. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• As on the french WP, this should be AfDed here. WP is not a newspaper. If it becomes high profile and "permanent", that is the moment to create an article like this, not now... --Guillaume2303 (talk) 10:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

An editor has questioned whether this topic passes the notability criteria - criteria below:

• 2.1.1 Lasting effects - the guideline is clear that "This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable" - by definition we cannot prove this after 5 days
• 2.1.2 Geographical scope - "Coverage of an event nationally or internationally makes notability more likely" this has been headline news in the UK and France every day since the event and shows no sign of going away
• 2.2.1 Depth of coverage - covered by every major newspaper in UK and France every day
• 2.2.2 Duration of coverage - headlines every day so far
• 2.2.3 Diversity of sources - "Significant national or international coverage is usually expected for an event to be notable" - clearly passes this test.

So in summary, I will remove the tag. Can anyone who disagrees find a major newspaper in either of these two countries that hasn't covered this every day? Oncenawhile (talk) 07:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

But WP is not a newspaper. Of course there's ongoing media coverage of this event as it's a live and developing news story. That does not automatically transfer into notability for an encyclopedia. Your quotes from WP:EVENT above are quite selective. For example, it also says:

• "most crimes, accidents, deaths ... - whether or not tragic or widely reported at the time - are usually not notable unless something further gives them additional enduring significance"
• "Coverage of an event nationally or internationally makes notability more likely, but does not automatically assure it" (above, you've missed out the qualifying phrase; and, separately, extrapolated from the 2.2.3 quote in a classic case of reverse logic - saying thing X is likely to have characteristic Y is not the same thing as saying that anything with characteristic Y must be a thing X)
• "Events that are only covered in sources published during or immediately after an event, without further analysis or discussion, are likely not suitable for an encyclopedia article" (we are of course still "in" the event as the investigation is ongoing)

And, for what it's worth, in fact the lack of high-profile coverage in much of the French press has been specifically noted, eg here. N-HH talk/edits 09:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

While I wouldn't have created this article yet, It looks like it is on the margins of notability. I'm inclined to keep the article small and correct (wary of newspaper speculation), and WP:EVENT#Don't rush to delete articles, and see how it goes over the next couple of weeks. It has had extensive coverage in the UK media for nearly a week, so is doing well on the WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE criteria. I notice the Washington Post has had two long articles on it ([1] and [2]), reasonably demonstrating international coverage. Wait and see I think, before any serious consideration for deletion. Rwendland (talk) 20:35, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if this should be here at all yet, after all it only happened a few days ago and the investigation into the cirtumstances is still at an early stage. Once again this demonstrates the latent need for a set of guidelines to deal with murder and death-related articles. I have opened a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography in an attempt to address this, so please feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 15:07, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Although we would normally eschew crystal balls, every now and again a crime occurs that virtually from the outset has all the hallmarks of a case that will become indelibly impressed on the public consciousness, and this is certainly a strong candidate. It doesn't much matter that - as noted - the French press are showing little interest, because the exact opposite is true of the country of origin of the majority of the victims, and I think we can safely say that we have long since passed the point where this story has any chance of fizzling out into nothing. Whatever the motives of the assailants, the sheer brutality of the killings and the nature of the victims guarantees it a place as a high-profile crime. Nick Cooper (talk) 08:33, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

It does seem that interest in this story has waned over the last few days. I have not heard anything on the TV news regarding this incident for the last 3 or 4 days. Markdarrly (talk) 23:47, 19 September 2012 (UTC) 20 Sept 00.47

It was the subject of a half-hour BBC Radio 4 programme a few days ago, which is a significant indication of notability: The Report - Annecy Killings, BBC Radio 4, 8:00PM Thu, 27 Sep 2012. Rwendland (talk) 16:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't the title of the article be more specific than the Annecy shootings?? Most people know of it by the name of the commune Chevaline. CanadaOlympic989 03:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I explained the move in the edit summary at the time, but even now Google is showing 40,400 for "Annecy shootings" and a mere 151 for "Chevaline shootings". We go with what the majority English-language sources are using. Nick Cooper (talk) 13:19, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Date and time

French Wikipedia's valuable article mentions the discovery of the crime scene at 15h48. Wakari07 (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

Factual error: It's not "Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d'Iré", but "Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d'Ire", without an accent on the last "e". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.227.1.33 (talk) 12:48, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Motive?

Shouldn't there be a section considering the various possible motives, from random killing, family conflict, mafia, to Mossad or Iran?203.184.41.226 (talk) 21:28, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

French investigators now have three leads: a family feud involving Saad, something related to his work at SSTL or something with Iraq. Short of sources, no time sorry. Wakari07 (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

See news. French police suspect Sylvain Mollier was the "main target". Daily Mail 16 September titles "double life". Wakari07 (talk) 19:28, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. The main lead is since 2014 the family motive, with Menegaldo as main suspect. I think the paragraphs under "Police investigation" summarizes the leads and motives quite well. ReiniUrban (talk) 14:05, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Gun shells

French investigators said 25 gunshells were found in the area. (NBC) Wakari07 (talk) 02:01, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Not really the same as "25 shots were fired". Wakari07 (talk) 20:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree that its not really the same but when it is announced that 25 gunshells have been found, it can be taken that the number of shots fired was 25, unless the gunman/gunmen took spare casings with them to leave behind, which is unheard of.Markdarrly (talk) 23:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

News

Add source on weapon: 8-round Luger Parabellum 08, possible link to Switzerland or Swiss Army.
Snippet: " The ammunition, which is 21 mm long, is now rare and is used with very few other weapons. The bullets for the Luger P08 are also all marked with their date of manufacture. Philip Boyce, an internationally recognised UK firearms expert, said: “The ammunition would either have been stored in a dry place since the 1940s or would have to be specially purchased, and therefore would be easily traced."
(The Telegraph UK, 16/09/2012) Wakari07 (talk) 01:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Cold Case

I think this case has run out of steam now, it seems that the investigation has stalled, unless the survivors manage to produce anything that turns into a new lead. I believe that this case will remain unsolved, it is quite obvious the press has lost interest in the story, it is hardly ever mentioned anymore, the radio program is the first thing i have heard in almost 2 weeks. As for the ammunition used, if it is that easy to trace it would not have been used.Markdarrly (talk) 18:10, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

There are some new investigation activities regarding the Luger P08 gun used [3], the victims brother [4] and the Iraq connection [5]. From today perspective, that's not a "cold case". I hope, the authors make an update to the article. --178.202.130.225 (talk) 22:37, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

"As for the ammunition used, if it is that easy to trace it would not have been used." - That statement is made under the assumption that this was a planned assassination. The ammunition is telling you the exact opposite. This was probably a classic case of road rage, with one of the parties tragically being armed and unable to control himself, and with perhaps elements of racial bigotry too. Akld guy (talk) 09:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Swiss connection?

France is apparently now seeking to question the gunman who killed three people in a shooting across the border from Haute-Savoie, in Daillon, Switzerland. The Telegraph, Agence France Presse. I'm not sure whether/how to work this into the article; under the lone psychopath category? Paris1127 (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Mossad?

The "most likely" conspiracy theory would be that Mossad killed these people, but not that the French and British intelligence agencies were involved. I do not think that the killing of women and children would be a blow to this theory, as Mossad has not hesitated to kill civilians in the past. However, do we know whether the targets had any involvement in defence matters sensitive enough to make an Israeli attack likely?203.184.41.226 (talk) 02:31, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk pages are not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. Keep your theories for chat rooms and stick to the verifiable facts here. Obscurasky (talk) 17:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I second that. Only CABAL talks here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.89.192.112 (talk) 17:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Mossad 2

The Daily Mirror headlines "It’s possible Mossad has taken offence and put a hit out on him": French shooting dad's secret Islamic rants could hold key to massacre" and then says this "The British engineer killed in the French Alps ­secretly held extreme anti-Israeli beliefs which could be the key to the massacre that has baffled police, a close friend claims. To his wealthy neighbours, Saad al-Hilli was a devoted family man. But behind closed doors he is said to have spent hours on his computer bombarding Arabic chatrooms with anti-Israeli posts."

The Daily Mirror article continues with a direct quote from a named individual who claims to have spoke to the police about it:

"Tonight Gary Aked, who had known Saad for nearly 20 years, is being ­questioned by two Surrey police officers about his explosive new clues to the ­killings, which are contained in chatroom and online forum messages posted by Saad <...> close friend of Iraqi-born Saad after meeting him in 1993 when they worked for the same engineering firm. They even went on holiday together <...> Tonight Gary Aked, who had known Saad for nearly 20 years, is being ­questioned by two Surrey police officers about his explosive new clues to the ­killings <...> “He thought 9/11 was an inside job by the Israelis to create hatred against the Arabic nations. After 9/11 his involvement in chatrooms increased dramatically. He was very passionate about his beliefs. He didn’t believe the Jews should be in Israel. He thought the land should be Palestinian." <...> I think it’s possible he has offended someone and Mossad has taken offence and put a hit out on him <...> he would have never done anything to put his family in danger. He was not a violent person,” he said. <...> “I would rule out work. He wasn’t into anything nuclear, he wasn’t into any defence contracts,” he said. “In any case he wouldn’t have got the clearance for sensitive defence contracts because of his Iraq background. It was definitely not the cause of his death.” https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-islamic-rants-1326315

And so on and so forth (please note, the Daily Mirror is a red-top but it is not the Daily Mail).

The Telegraph has information on the killing itself and infers this was a professional assassination of some kind though without commenting on state actors or Israel:

28 Sep, 2012 ... Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.

While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.

This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9557078/France-shooting-British-victim-was-selling-second-home.html

At least one famous (and highly credible) blogger has argued that Israel should be a prime suspect (and provided the links above). When so many obviously false and unfounded "conspiracy theories" get mention (usually in derision) in the Wikipedia, failing to mention well-reported information and analysis in main-stream newspapers is an open invitation to conspiracy theories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:AF80:6F01:A975:1C87:875A:E263 (talk) 08:48, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Release of police sketch brought no success

Maybe someone wants to update the erticle? http://www.thelocal.fr/20131202/alps-murders-al-hilli-chevaline-annecy --92.203.0.91 (talk) 23:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

P08 vs P06 Luger weapon

Some news articles mention the weapon being a P08 being standard issue to the Swiss army, and others mention the P06 which is a much rarer piece of equipment that is almost exclusively spoken of in terms of model/manufacture, such as P06/29. Currently the article infobox says P06 from what may be an incorrect reference, so how are we to resolve this issue? Pmw57 (talk) 21:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Lone psychopath" theory

The section--"Lone psychopath" theory--contains two paragraphs. The second paragraph, which begins "In November 2013, two men broke into the property of a man and woman..." should be deleted for these reasons:

• It is irrelevant to the subject of the section;

• It is irrelevant to the entire "Annecy shootings" article. If this paragraph made a connection between the gun used in the Annecy shootings and the gun that accidentally killed the wife during the burglary, then the paragraph would warrant inclusion in the article, but IT DOESN'T.

Please delete this paragraph; it only serves to muddy the focus on a real motive behind the massacre.

89.102.32.205 (talk) 00:45, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Possible redundancy

According to de:Vierfachmord in den Französischen Alpen 2012 (which cites Le Figaro), the present article's sections "Arrest of local ex-policeman", "January 2022 arrest" and possibly "Missing motorcyclist" refer to the same suspect. 2A02:908:4B30:B960:615B:7456:C3CF:BAC0 (talk) 00:30, 27 May 2022 (UTC)